Paul Denyer Police Interviews

In my previous post I wrote about the murders carried out by Paul Denyer and alluded to the incomprehensible thought processes behind his actions. This post contains some of the answers he provided during his police interviews.

The first to die was Elizabeth Stevens.

I saw her get off the bus. I was walking across the road. Just something hit me straight in the head, you know, go! So I ran across the road in front of all these cars and got to the other side where I followed her around the corner…
I walked up behind her and stuck my left hand around her head…
Walked in a bit of bushland beside the main track in Lloyd Park…
I started choking her with my hands and she passed out after a while. You know, the oxygen got cut off to her head and-and she just stopped. And then I pulled out the knife … and stabbed her many times in the throat. And she was still alive. And then she stood up and we walked around and all that, just walked around a few steps and I threw her on the ground and stuck my foot over her neck … to finish her off…

Can you tell me why you attacked her on that night? What led to it?

Just … I just had … just the feeling, that’s all.

What sort of feeling? Can you possibly describe it – where you had this feeling?

Just wanted … just wanted to kill, just wanted to take a life because I felt my life had been taken so many times.

By whom?

David.

Who is David?

My eldest brother.

When did he … do you wish to say what he …?

No, no.

Was it of a sexual nature?

Yeah.

When you were younger?

Mm.

Abused you.

Mm.

And you felt cheated by that or something.

Yeah.

It is unlikely that this is true. David and his wife Julie live in London, largely to escape the impact that Paul had on their lives. They claimed he had made death threats before the murders. In 2004, somehow he found their address and wrote to them, apologising for the sex abuse claims. He wrote “I’m sorry about allowing lies to be said about you David”.

… when you said you were stabbing her at this location back in Lloyd Park what were you feeling at the time? For example were you angry?

Happy, sad, angry, many things.

Are you saying that she got up after that? Did that surprise you?

Yeah, it did in a way. She got up and walked. And she didn’t cry. She was just normal.

So how far … when you say she walked, how far bid she actually walk?

Around in circles with me.

You were holding her still?

Yeah, just under one arm.

Why were you doing that? Did you help her up? Is that what you’re indicating?

Yeah.

So what happened after she walked around in circles?

There was a puddle of like … flooded area there .And I pushed her into there so she could wash her … you know … blood off her and all that. And then I dragged her across the water.

Well, when did you put your foot on her neck as you described before?

When she was lying on the side of the sort of flooded area with her legs in the water.

And why did you do that?

To kill her.

So you did that and then she went into a sort of spasm you said before, or some sort of quivering?

Yeah, her whole body just shook and everything .. and then she stopped.

Did you think she was dead?

No, she was still breathing … from her neck.

How did you know that?

I could hear it.

How long did that last for?

Five minutes.

Roszsa Troth escaped a certain death.

I wrestled with her. She ran out on the road but no one stopped. And I grabbed her by the hair and dragged her back toward the park.
I said “Shut –up or I’ll blow your f***ing head off’
I was just gonna drag her in the park and kill her, that’s all

He tried to articulate the feeling building up inside him.

Yeah, every day it was just going up, boiling up til I got to that stage.

Debbie Fream was murdered when her baby was only a few days old.

What caused you to select her at that time?

Just that go feeling. While she was in the milk bar I walked up to the driver’s door and it was unlocked …, so I opened the door and put my hand through and unlocked the back door. I hopped in the car and crouched down behind the seat and pulled out a gun that I had. Then I looked up out of the car window and I saw her in the milk bar. I crouched down and I could hear her footsteps coming closer to the car. And the she opened the door. The interior light went on and then she hopped in the car. She didn’t see me in the back. And then she closed the door, you know, the light went out and everything and it was dark. And I waited for her to start up the car so no one could hear her scream or anything. And she put it into gear and went to do a U-turn. And I startled her just as she was doing that turn and she kept going into the wall of the milk bar, which caused a dent on the bonnet. I told her to, you know, shut up or I’d blow her head off and all that shit.

He ordered her to drive. When they got to Taylor’s Road, they got out of the car. He jammed the fake gun down his pants and pulled a cord out of his pocket

I popped it over her eyes real quickly so she didn’t see it ... cause I was gonna strangle her. But I didn’t want her to see the cord first. I lifted up the cord and I said “Can you see this?” And she just put up her hand to grab it to feel it and when she did that I just yanked on it real quickly round her neck. And then I was struggling with her for about five minutes.

She was struggling?

Yeah, until she started to faint a bit. And then when she was, you know, like weaker, I pulled me knife out of me sock then … and started stabbing her around the neck and the chest several … several times.

You strangled her. Is that the first thing that happened?

As she sort of weakened and fell onto the ground that’s when I stabbed her in the throat.

Once?

Many times, and once in the stomach.

Where was she?

Lying on the ground.

Was she dead or alive when you stabbed her in the throat?

Almost dead.

So you stabbed her a number of times. And what happened then?

She started breathing out of her neck, just like Elizabeth Stevens. I could just hear bubbling noises.

Did Debbie Fream put up any resistance?

Yeah, she put up quite a fight. And her white jumper was pulled off during that time as well. I felt just the same way as I did when I killed Elizabeth Stevens.

What happened after you stabbed her around the throat and chest area?

I lifted up her top and just ploughed the knife into her gut.

You lifted up the top to do that?

Yeah.

Do you know why you lifted up the top?

I wanted to see how big her boobs were.

Was that part of the fantasy?

I don’t know.

You actually recall thinking that way?

Sort of. And I saw her bare stomach so I just lunged at her with the knife.

Why did you kill her?

Same reason I killed Elizabeth Stevens. I just wanted to.

Natalie Russell left school early and walked home along a lonely track.

I went up there earlier that day and cut the holes in the fences.

He admitted being armed with a red handled knife.

Oh, and the leather strap

What was that? What sort of leather strap?

Just a thin – you would have found it at the scene – in two pieces.

What was that used for?

Strangling.

I saw her walk … she was coming up the track and I saw her walk past, like, that way and I ran out through the hole in the fence again and followed her.

Did she see you?

She turned around once and saw me. And I stuck about ten meters behind her until I got to the second hole, I walked up behind her and stuck my left hand around her mouth and held the knife to her throat …

Dragged her through the fence…

Was she struggling?

At first, and then she sort of stopped.

Why?

Because I told her I was gonna cut her throat … I said I was gonna, yeah, cut her throat. And I walked through the hole in the fence. I followed her through and I dragged her into the trees. Like she offered, she said “oh, you can have sex with me if you want.” She goes “You can have all my money, have sex with me,” and things – just said disgusting things like that really.

And did that upset you?

In a way … and I got her to kneel down in front of me and I held the knife blade over her eye, really closely, and yeah, she had the same colour eyes as I have.

Why did you hold that knife so close to her eye?

Just so she could see the blade.

And why was she kneeling?

No, she was lying on the ground at that stage and I was lying on top of her. I wasn’t lying, I was kneeling. Just holding her up by the throat with the knife next to her eye. And she struggled and then the knife cut her on the face. And she was bleeding a bit then … yeah and then when she got up she started to scream a bit. And I just said “Shut up. Shut up. Shut up. Shut up.” And “If you don’t shut up, I’ll kill you. If you don’t do this I’ll kill you, if you don’t do that.” And she said what do you want from me. And I said “all I want you to do is to shut up.” And so when she was kneeling on the ground, I put the strap around her neck to strangle her and it broke in half. And then she started violently struggling for about a minute until I pushed – got her onto her back again – and pushed her head back like this and cut her throat. I cut a small cut at first and then she was bleeding. And then I stuck my fingers into her throat … and grabbed her cords and I twisted them.

Why’d you do that?

My whole fingers – like that much of my hand was inside her throat.

Do you know why you did that?

Stop her from breathing … and then she slowly stopped. She sort of started to faint and then when she was weak, a bit weaker, I grabbed the opportunity of throwing her head back and one big large cut which sort of cut almost her whole head off. And then she slowly died.

Why did you want to kill her?

Just the same reason as before, just everything came back through my mind again. I kicked her before I left.

Why’s that?

While she was dead, just booted her.

Why did you kick her after? Like she was obviously dead at that stage.

Make sure she was dead.

Kicking her, would that make sure she’s dead?

Well, if she had’ve moved, I would have known…

Yeah, I slashed her across the face

Who’s that?

The last victim.

What do you mean you slashed her across the face. After she was dead?

Yeah, I just cut her straight down this side of the face.

Why was that?

Don’t know.

After his account of the three murders, he added more detail.

Yeah, I’ve been stalking women for a few years in Frankston.

How long do you think you’ve been doing that?

Three or four years, since I was seventeen I think. I’ve been following heaps of women around.

Just waiting for the opportunity?

Waiting for the sign.

Without any emotion, he confessed to planning the murder of Donna Vanes.

She moved out of Claude St. because I broke into her place and killed all of her cats.

When did you do that?

Earlier this year.

What did you do that for?

I went there to kill her but she wasn’t home.

Did you prepare yourself for that?

Yeah, I had a large knife on me.

Where did that come from?

Well, I bought that for about $7.50 from Aussie Disposals in Frankston, Beach St.

Was there any other preparation?

I had gloves so I wouldn’t leave any prints. I don’t think I did leave any prints, no.

When did you put the gloves on?

Just as I walked up to the front door. I knocked on the door first to see if there was anyone there, but there was no one there so I walked around the back and climbed through the window. Cut a hole through the fly screen and sort of wedged myself through.

Was the window open?

Yeah, wide open.

What did you want to kill her for? You knew her, didn’t you? Isn’t she …

Vaguely.

Tricia, who lives in Flat 3. Isn’t it her sister? What had she done wrong? Or had she done anything wrong?

Don’t like her sister.

Trish?

No ,don’t like Trish at all.

So, what did that have to do with Donna?

Well, I knew that she was home by herself most of the time.

Donna was? Did you dislike Donna for any reason?

Never really liked her, no.

And you went to Donna’s flat in Claude St. to kill her?

Yeah.

And she wasn’t home?

No, wasn’t home.

So you broke in and what did you do?

I killed her cats.

How many?

Three.

How did you kill her cats?

Stabbed ‘em all. I walked slowly into the lounge room because the lights were on, just cause I thought that somebody was there. And then I just went into a blind rage and just killed anything that was alive in the house.

What would have happened if Donna was there?

I would’ve cut her throat.

Can you explain what happened to the cats? Where were they?

Well, the mother cat ran into the laundry and I chased after it. It lunged at me and I just stabbed it in the side and it died straight away.

And what happened to the others?

I slit their throats and threw them in the bath tub.

Can you explain why we have women victims?

I just hate ‘em.

I beg your pardon?

I just hate ‘em.

Those particular girls or just women in general?

General.

You told Detective Senior Sergent Wilson that you stabbed them in the throat. Is there any particular reason why there?

Well, it looked like the most vulnerable spot.

Did each girl get stabbed in the throat?

All of ‘em. I saw it in a movie once and it looked effective.

What movie was that?

It was called “The Stepfather”. And a guy stabbed a guy in the neck and yeah, it just looked effective.

How did you feel afterwards?

Like the temperature gauge was coming down.

What do you mean?

Well, it was going up to boiling point, then afterwards it just came down ‘til it stopped at a level and then climbed up again.

You’re referring to what type of feeling?

Hate, anger.

Is this something that you plan?

No, I would just go to a certain area and then pick targets around, just you know, anyone you see walking around is … anyone women, woman by herself. So I’d just wait for them. No, it wasn’t premeditated in that way

Wait for the right opportunity to come along. Is that fair to say?

Yeah, just sort of go to the area and hope for the best.

It all defies belief.

The Frankston Murders

In my previous post I described the murder of Elizabeth Stevens and the attack on Roszsa Troth, and how Denyer had caught a train to nearby Kananook.

Leaving the train at Kananook, Denyer roamed the streets for some hours. His next victim was to be 22 year old Debbie Fream, mother of twelve day old son Jake. She needed some milk and eggs and drove to a corner store to make her purchases. While she was in the store, he hid in the back seat of her car. He produced an imitation firearm and forced her to drive to a lonely stretch of Taylors Road in Carrum Downs. He strangled her, and stabbed her more than twenty times in the throat and body before dumping her in the scrub. He then drove her car back to Seaford, parked it, and walked home.

Over the next few weeks he made elaborate plans for his next attack. He cut holes in the cyclone fencing that surrounded the Long Island Golf Club and dug a lair in dense scrub. Seated in his car in Skye Road, Frankston on July 30th he saw seventeen year old Natalie Russell walking along the bike track that ran alongside the fence. As she drew level with one of the holes he grabbed her, strangled her and stabbed her. At this moment the police were only fifty meters away, examining Denyer’s parked car. With his hands covered in blood, he began to walk back to the car and saw the police. Unperturbed, he changed direction and walked home.

Police investigations began to point to Denyer and he was interviewed by detectives on the following day. Although initially unwilling to cooperate, when confronted with the notion that DNA evidence would be advanced, he confessed to the horrors of the previous months.

Denyer entered a guilty plea to three counts of murder and one of kidnapping Troth. On December 20 he was sentenced to three life sentences with no minimum jail term. Justice Frank Vincent described the crimes as beyond comprehension.

“For many, you are the fear that quickens their steps as they walk alone, or that causes a parent to look anxiously at a clock when a child is late. I suspect you will never fully comprehend why this should be so, as, for reasons that we do not understand, you are not one of us.”

In a few words, Justice Vincent had encapsulated the situation. Denyer was not of this world. His plans and actions were vile and destructive.

In my next post I will reprint an edited version of the police interviews. They are particularly horrifying for the way Denyer retains an icy calm as he recounts the detail of the murders, and fails to show a scintilla of remorse.

Paul Denyer

My parents had moved to Seaford in 1974. Seaford is located on the Nepean Highway close to Frankston in Victoria, Auutralia. It is a quiet backwater, not a prosperous suburb but possessed of a magnificent bay side beach. It was an easy walk to the foreshore from their little home – along Railway Parade, past Seaford Station, into Station Street and over Nepean Highway to the beach. You could walk along the pier, drop in a fishing line or just sit and absorb the view. On a clear day you could see the sweeping curves of the Westgate Bridge to the north, and Arthur’s Seat to the south. During summer holidays and weekends the beach was crowded with Melburnians relaxing on the sand or swimming in the crystal clear water. Wind surfers and yachts flashed past in ribbons of colour.

For those who dared, the biting winds and fierce winter storms were not to be missed. The beachscape was different then, and often deserted. But by winter 1993 a chilling unease had spread through the bay side suburbs around Frankston. In June, a young woman had been brutally murdered in Langwarrin, and a shocked community waited anxiously for the crime to be solved. In this context, walking on deserted beaches or along dimly lit streets at night was not advisable.

The Denyer family migrated from England in 1965 and Paul was born in April 1972. Paul had four brothers and a sister. The family moved frequently, living in Adelaide, then Randwick and Campbelltown near Sydney before moving south to Victoria in 1981. They lived at several addresses in Mulgrave before the parents split. The children finally settled with their mother in Long Street, Langwarrin.

Neighbours recalled the Denyer boys as being uncontrollable. Paul was taller and heavier than his peers at school, a lonely teenager who found it hard to make friends. He was bland, quiet and undistinguished. At home he spent some of his time making weapons – knives, spears, ninja stars and glove guns. There were signs of deviant behaviour. His sister’s teddy bears were mutilated with a knife. He broke a broom over her head when she suggested that the house needed cleaning. A kitten with its throat cut was found hanging from a tree. Paul denied involvement but there was blood and fur on his knife. He left school at the age of 15 and had a series of jobs usually ending in dismissal for laziness or dishonesty. While working at Safeway he met his girlfriend Sharon and they leased a flat together in September 1992.

Within months there were disturbing incidents in the neighbourhood. A woman returned home to find her clothes and engagement pictures slashed. There were some peeping Tom reports. Early in February 1993 Donna Vanes returned home to find a horrifying scene.

“The cat, Buffy, lay in the kitchen, a picture of a bikini clad woman draped over its disembowelled body. Its entrails were spread through the kitchen, blood was smeared along the walls, along with the legend smeared in blood ‘Donna and Robyn – you’re Dead’. Girlie pin-ups which Donna’s fiancé had taped around the flat had been torn down and slashed. In the bath…were the bodies of three kittens, their throats cut.” (1)

So the killing frenzy began. It was Friday 11th June 1993. Elizabeth Stevens was 18 years old when she stepped of a bus in Cranbourne Road, Langwarrin. There she was accosted by Denyer. He led her to nearby Lloyd Park where he choked her and stabbed her repeatedly in the neck. He slashed her body and covered her in tree branches. He then walked to the home of Sharon’s mother, washed his clothes and melted the soles of his shoes to destroy any forensic evidence.

Palpable disquiet enveloped the community. On Thursday July 8th Roszsa Troth was returning home from work. She got off the train at Seaford and began walking along Railway Parade. Denyer leapt out of the bushes and placed his hand over her mouth. But she bit his hand, broke free and ran to the middle of the road where a passing motorist stopped to help. Denyer ran off to a nearby reserve and soon returned to the Seaford Railway Station where he caught a train to Kananook, one station down the line. All this took place within a few hundred metres of our family home, in the streets once considered safe.

The proximity of the family home to these events galvanised the family, and we were alert to the mood of the community. The most frightening aspect was fear ..... fear of the unknown.

Much later, after Denyer was arrrested, specific reports emerged from the Courts and the conclusion was inescapable. Denyer was a fit to the serial killer profile. He was a monster, and had lived in our community.

Denyer was arrested. After his arrest, Ian Joblin was the forensic psychologist who spent months trying to find out what drove a seemingly normal man to stalk and murder.

He diagnosed Denyer as “a rare breed of serial killer, murdering his victims at random without apparent motive…perhaps the most dangerous criminal this community has ever known…able to describe his crimes without a flicker of emotion…not legally insane but extremely emotionally disturbed…able to lead a camouflaged life in middle class suburbia and present a veneer of normality to even his closest friends and family. His de facto partner Sharon Johnson never suspected him…having a sadistic personality disorder, demonstrated by a steady pattern of cruel demeaning and aggressive behaviour since early adulthood. He appears amused by the psychological and physical suffering he has inflicted on his victims.”

Joblin told the Supreme Court that the condition was entrenched and he doubted if it could be shifted. He told Denyer’s mother that “…the precise cause of personality disorders is unknown, beyond a complex, unpredictable cocktail of personal characteristics, early childhood experiences and possible instances of minor brain damage.”

This was all so close to home. Frightening beyond belief.

I wil tell you more about Paul Denyer in my next post.

Forensic Psychology

Forensic psychology has become a passionate interest for me. It is the branch of psychology concerned with the collection, examination and presentation of psychological evidence in the context of criminal investigations and court proceedings. It aims to expose and clarify the thought processes of the criminal mind, and provide an insight as to what motivates a criminal to act in seemingly inexplicable ways.

Take the example of the serial killer. Forensic psychologists have established a list of criteria which may apply to a serial killer. He may be sadistic, and choose his victims at random. Those who suffer at his hands are predominately strangers. He may be involved in the pursuit and fulfilment of a fantasy of domination He is more likely to prey on those least able to defend themselves – such as vagrants, hitch hikers, runaways, children, women and the elderly. All such people are vulnerable, easily overpowered and the theme of power and control is easily reinforced. His acts are apparently without motive, but he may enjoy the thrill, dominance and sometimes achieve sexual gratification. It is usually a compulsive act. There need not be any direct connections between the murders. He may choose to kill close to home, feeling comfortable in areas he knows well. In Australia, offenders are overwhelmingly male, between the ages of eighteen and thirty, and from blue collar backgrounds. He may be an unpopular person devoid of meaningful friendships. Childhood factors may have an impact. He may grow up in a dysfunctional family, and have suffered various forms of abuse – physical, psychological or sexual. He could have been a victim of poverty and hardship, and have a preoccupation with fantasy and murder. He may have established a psychological link between violence and pleasure. He may have exhibited cruelty to animals and young children.

Paul Denyer is a serial killer. The whole concept intrigued and sickened me. During the investigation the expertise of Claude Minisini had been employed. Minisini had been a member of the Victorian Police Rape Squad where it was a daily task to investigate frightening crimes of an interpersonal nature. He began to study the relatively new science of criminal profiling, and was selected to complete a year long fellowship at the Behavioural Science Unit at the FBI Academy in Quantico, Virginia. The course explored human behaviour and linked the clues that behaviour could provide to the identification of an offender. After he left the police he set up FBIS International Issues Management. He was able to construct a profile of Denyer.

“Each serial killer acts out for his own personal motivation that’s unique to him because the activities that we see as the end product, the killing, has developed through a personal fantasy…serial killers are defined as those who had killed two or more people, with an emotional cooling off period in between…serial killers are highly egotistical…it is all about power and assertion. It’s the ultimate power of all – controlling the destiny of someone’s life. It is a psychological need. What is difficult for the community to accept is that there are some individuals amongst us who enjoy killing. What we have seen in their backgrounds is their family life has been somewhat dysfunctional…They do have a very active fantasy life…employment has been spasmodic or irregular. They lack commitment to any purposeful activity. They have little regard to behaviour outside their killing.”

I will write more about Denyer in my next post.

Aussie Rules

I said in my profile that I am an avid fan of Australian Rules Football. I support Geelong, nicknamed the Cats and have done so ever since I can remember. It is a family thing. My great uncle Les Laver played for the Cats in the 1920's and coached the reserves for a few years. We have a clipping from the Sun - the morning newspaper back then - showing a photograph of him on the playing field wearing the same distinctive blue and white hoops that they still wear. Everyone was so proud of him.

Geelong has had its share of lows but is currently at the top of the AFL ladder. So much relies on super stars. But more relies on the ability of the champions to form the hub of the team. There have been two Gary Abletts playing for Geelong. Gary Senior was a man possessed of extraordinary skills. Exceptionally strong and able to leap for the ball and kick goals from any angle, he attracted the fans of all ages and thrilled them with his prowess.

But he was a flawed character. When his stellar career ended he seemed to lose his place in life. He featured in the media in stories involving women, alcohol and drugs. In the worst and most tragic story he spent the night with a young woman in a hotel where they shared a cocktail of drugs and alcohol. By the morning she was dead. He escaped a prison term but was shattered and has spent the best part of his life in recent years as a reclusive figure, undergoing rehabilitation and displaying a fragile, tormented personna only on rare occasions.

It is a moot point as to whether he should have endured a prison term. I think that it would have been the end for him. I doubt that his distressed mind could have coped.

Now his son Gary Junior has captured the imagination of the football fans. Not as tall as his father, but faster and fitter and equipped with exquisite skills, Gary Junior is now at the top of his game. Last year he was at the top of the list of favourites to win the Brownlow Medal, the annual award for the fairest and best footballer in the competition. He is also one of the favourites this year.

What a great event it would be if he won the medal this year. For him, an outstanding achievement. And a stunning moment for his father. And in a way a form of redemption for Gary Senior. He was good enough to have won that medal. It was his temperament that was so tragically flawed. And it just might help neutralise the taint of criminality that has dogged the family.

I want the young man to win this award with all my heart.

It will be a medal for both of them.

First post

This is my first post. The idea of blogging really appeals to me,as it seems to have the potential to open up a whole new level of communication. I have lots of friends and family to communicate with, but getting some fresh ideas from strangers is really appealing. Wonder why it has taken so long to get started. Probably because I'm always doing something. I'm really interested in crime and the factors that create the criminal mind. Does anyone know much about Paul Denyer? He is a serial killer currently in Barwon Prison in Victoria Australia. I have been reading some stuff on forensic psychology and will post some info on him latter today.